» Forum Index » Viper Talk » Topic: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion

Posted on 05/11/12 7:08:43 PM
Bungarus
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Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Hello Vipers.

Please excuse my imperfect English, I'm not a native speaker.

I am new to VO (still on trial), but pirate hunting was my main business in Elite resulting in the Elite combat rating with "Legal status: Clean". (-;

But why I post:

I always disliked factions and factionalism in any MMOG because I want to decide on my own about my roleplay and who is my ally or who is my enemy - based on experiences I make in the game with individual players or guilds instead of having to chose a side when creating a character without knowing anybody and being forced into a meaningless war.

I considered subscribing to VO though because I thought with UIT I could stay out of the faction conflicts.

After reading this thread I am reconsidering right now.

I wonder why no one of the interfactional guilds like VPR or EMS speaks out against this on the VO forum (sorry if I overlooked something), since it forces players to take a side in the blue vs. red thing.

It also reduces potential access to ships and other equipment significantly. (If you keep your standing with Serco you lose access to high-end Itani equipment and vice versa.)

What do you think?


Posted on 05/11/12 8:55:28 PM
Strat
Commander [VPR]
Posts: 3964

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Hello, Bungarus. Welcome to VO and thank you for your post! A Viper did actually speak out against the changes, albeit rather softly. "Ishathis Bessuni" is known as "zak.wilson" on the VO forum. See the following post.

http://www.vendetta-online.com/x/msgboard/3/26058?page=2#318119

The Vipers have always maintained neutrality in the Serco/Itani war and nationalist guilds on both sides have a good relationship with us. We also have members from all 3 nations, so not all Vipers are UIT. Even since the recent faction standing mutual exclusivity update, the 2 current primary nationalist guilds, [ONE] and [Itan], both respect our neutrality and often assist us in fighting the pirates. Even if a Viper has hated status with Itani or Serco, members of these nationalists guilds see our guild tag and treat us as an ally.

As a guild, we need to look at the bigger picture and understand that what is best for the game is not always what is best for the guild. [VPR] is the oldest guild in VO (nearly 9 years old now) and we have had to adapt as the game changed over the years. I can understand why the devs and most of the player-base are in favor of faction standing mutual exclusivity. VO is a game centered around war and conflict. These changes do make it a bit harder for us to be neutral, but we have adapted to make it work for us. There are other guilds in the same boat, such as [TGFT], [EMS], and [ORE].

The bottom line is that there will always be piracy in VO and The Vipers will therefore always have a relevant role in the game. This recent faction mutual exclusivity update has not significantly hampered our ability to effectively protect traders or hunt pirates. I hope this issue doesn't push you away from the game. It's still very feasible to play a neutral character and I'd estimate that most of the characters in the game are neutral.

Posted on 05/11/12 11:32:09 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Thank you for your answer.

I remember that post now and it has a point, especially from your guild's perspective. I guess having a widely respected altruistic goal like anti-piracy helps in being accepted as neutral.

But I think even a fairly selfish guild that aims at power, influence, ressources etc. should be possible as neutral in respect to the national conflicts. I played an MMOG like this, Mankind (not a space sim but an RTS set in space and on planets), which had no predefined factions at all resulting in a big variety of "good/light", "evil/dark", and "grey" guilds with many different concepts of roleplay. There were religious zealots, pirates, socialists, traders, mercenaries, protective guilds, two guilds that were inspired by the Roman Empire, a guild that was inspired by Asimov's "Foundation" novels - a very rich and diverse "culture". Missed that in Jumpgate which also had predefined factions/nations.

And of course Mankind is also centered around war and conflict. Guilds with similar goals formed big alliances, and tensions between those grew into some huge wars, sometimes shifting the political balance of the galaxy dramatically. But these wars always had a reason, a beginning and an end, sometimes because of military outcomes, sometimes bacause of diplomatic efforts. More interesting than always the same war which is an endless and quite meaningless treadmill and simply what you signed when creating your character I think.

And the equipment issue? It makes the game less attractive if you have less access to interesting equipment I'm afraid.

But I might subscribe anyway. No choice left actually if one prefers a twitch-based space sim MMOG now that Jumpgate is gone.

At this early stage I don't have a clue of course if I will be of any use in pvp, but if so you might see me again in your application forum one day since my disposition seems to fit in quite naturally with your goals.

As a pvp-oriented guild, what do you recommend, having a better standing with Serco or Itani? I guess the latter because of the Valkyrie?

Posted on 05/11/12 11:59:16 PM
Strat
Commander [VPR]
Posts: 3964

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Ships and equipment really aren't much of an issue. Equipment can be bought from players if you don't have the standing to buy it at the station. All the ships other than the valk and prom have excellent variants that can be bought in grey or UIT space. The only real choice you have to make is between the valk and prom. The prom is generally more powerful in most 1 on 1 PvP combat situations, but the valk is great in a chase. Most Vipers chose Itani standing for access to the valk, for chasing fleeing pirates and whatnot. I think we'll eventually be able to trade ships between players, so then it'll be completely irrelevant, the same way it is with equipment.

VO has a variety of guilds with interesting RP concepts, some related to the VO universe and backstory, some completely unrelated. There is definitely a rich culture in VO, separate and in addition to what is defined for us in the backstory. We have player-driven politics, wars, and alliances all outside of the Serco/Itani conflict.

All I can say is that it's a very fun game and I'm sure it will grow on you if you stick around. It usually doesn't exactly match new players' expectations, but it's unique and great in all its own ways. If you do end up subscribing, you're more than welcome to apply to become a Viper. You don't have to be a PvP ace to be a great Viper. We're really just a group of friendly players who share the same RP values. I hope to see you around soon!

Posted on 05/12/12 00:22:31 AM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
You are a good advocate of the game. I will subscribe for a first month.

Is it difficult to shift faction standing from Itani to Serco or vice versa in order to try out both ships?


Posted on 05/12/12 00:33:25 AM
Strat
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Bungarus wrote:
Is it difficult to shift faction standing from Itani to Serco or vice versa in order to try out both ships?


Not at all. Once you are experienced you can go from neutral to admired in maybe around 4 hours, just doing bulk procurement missions. Then you can stockpile ships, so once you raise the other faction back up, you won't be able to buy them anymore, but you can still dock to access your stockpiles. So, it's really not bad at all.

Posted on 05/12/12 00:41:19 AM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
I see! Thank you for your patience.

Posted on 05/12/12 04:36:43 AM
Ishathis Bessuni
Lieutenant & Council [VPR]
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
It's worth pointing out that the faction exclusion isn't very severe. You can be admired by one side (giving access to high-end equipment) and still liked by the other (giving access to mid-range equipment).

There are also neutral guilds with non-altruistic motives. TGFT is nominally driven by profit, though its members tend to be friendly and helpful. Most nationalists treat them as friendly.

Posted on 05/12/12 08:26:09 AM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Well, I forgot to point out this is a slippery slope, obviously.

Initially incarnate wrote:
This point of mutual exclusion, for right now, will be at the transition between Respect and Admire.
...
This is a step
...
You'll be able to achieve middle-Admire with both sides, for now.
...
I originally planned to be less.. generous with the exclusivity tradeoff. For right now, I'm just aiming for a simple number to give this a shot, without creating too chaotic of a controversy.

After that many posters expressed they wished for more radical changes in the future:
step in the right direction
...
So, basically just a cosmetic change. I guess it's a start!
...
Being admired by one side of a war should mean being disliked by the other.
...
Yes, don't be too conservative with the change.
...
I'll grant its an insignificant step in the right direction.
...
You're poachable in at least one faction's space, and you can't buy either faction's best hardware and ships unless you're high neutral/low respect with one. Seems a good starting point.

After that Incarnate wrote:
Well, the feedback on dialing up the standing repercussions is well received. And that's why threads like this are a useful gauge.

He must have the impression the change - and further, more radical changes in that direction - are welcome by the community. So a bit later he wrote:
I've said elsewhere (in the big standing thread from 2007) that I intended it to sway down as far as Dislike. We can revisit all of this at a time when we aren't in the midst of a big anniversary and promo

Earlier in the thread he had written:
Nothing is ever cast in stone, either way, and things can be tweaked down the road.

So I think you should have stood up against the wrong direction this takes for non-factionalists as early as possible. Wasted chance perhaps.

Somewhere in your forum I read that you expect members to have good standing with all factions because the goals of the guild require to be able to operate in every faction's space. This is clearly in danger with these changes.

It may be possible for you to adjust once more to even further changes in order to maintain the core of the guild's goals. But it will certainly become more difficult. I don't quite understand why you seem to think it is better to lean back without at least trying to defend your interests.

I find the perspective of factionalism (in which I don't have the slightest interest) forcing me to grind bad enough. Closing amounts of space to me without having any profit from that as a non-factionalist I find disturbing.

I thought about opposing the changes in that thread in the VO-forum, but thought as a completely fresh newbie my words wouldn't have much weight and I might attract quite an amount of hatred from the majoritiy which would perhaps not be a good start.

But it is not too uncommon for me to be in a minority. So I might come back to it should I decide to stay in the game after my first month.


Posted on 05/12/12 1:28:32 PM
Strat
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
That wasn't the first thread where that plan was announced. This has been coming for many years (5 years ago, maybe even longer). Most of the arguing/debating was done back then.

Posted on 05/12/12 4:52:20 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
You mean it's really me poor newbie who would have to fight this (alone) since you are all tired of it and resigned to your fate? (-;

Posted on 05/12/12 5:58:57 PM
Ishathis Bessuni
Lieutenant & Council [VPR]
Posts: 955

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
I've been arguing against it for about as long as I've been playing. The devs do listen to input from the community, but ultimately they do have their own vision for the game, not to mention that most of the community supports some degree of exclusivity.

Those of us who like to be neutral might be able to keep it at its current level, but probably not roll back changes that have already been made.

There are also extremists who don't want *anybody* to be neutral. They occasionally form ultranationalist guilds and attack people who everyone else sees as neutral. They usually end up in conflict with everyone who's neutral and don't last very long as guilds.

Posted on 05/12/12 7:24:16 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Good to know, thanks for the information.

Perhaps the neutral guilds should at least speak out together against a slippery slope in a concerted action? Easiest way might be: Someone writes something in the VO-forum and posts links to this in the forums of the other neutral guilds.

You may wonder why I take this to heart since I just started playing VO. I want to play a space sim MMOG for years, but it was always thwarted by various circumstances. Finally I was ready to play only to find out that Jumpgate has disappeared, and now I am sort of panicking over the possibility that the last space sim MMOG might move in a direction that could severely spoil it for me.


Posted on 05/15/12 6:29:59 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
I could not resist touching on the topic in the VO forum in a thread about attractiveness of VO for new players, and it got the kind of hateful reaction I expected.

Posted on 05/15/12 7:20:44 PM
Strat
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Posts: 3964

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Bungarus wrote:
I could not resist touching on the topic in the VO forum in a thread about attractiveness of VO for new players, and it got the kind of hateful reaction I expected.


Yeah, the trolls are the most active participants on the VO forums. Some of the responses were not deliberately hateful. Woodlander and Pizzasgood were giving you reasonable responses at least, albeit probably not the responses you were hoping for. Please don't make the false assumption that the responses you received are indicative of the maturity/attitude of the entire player-base. Dr. Lecter and genka are two of the most notorious griefers/trolls in the history of the game. Ryan Reign isn't much better a lot of the time. Most of the friendly and sane VO veterans have learned to avoid debates on the forum, or even avoid the forum altogether, due the frustration of interacting with the trolls on their home turf.

Posted on 05/15/12 9:21:00 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Coincides with my impressions. Yes, Woodlander and Pizzasgood were ok.

Sad if the forum is in the hands of trolls and griefers though. I wondered why no one else opposed "noob killing is fun" etc.

Posted on 05/15/12 10:32:21 PM
Zoh
Member [VPR]
Posts: 15

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Bung,

VO's design pretty much favors trolls and griefers--not much cooperative content, world PvP without consequences, relatively low ceiling for solo achievement. After a while, picking on people is the only thing some people can think to do. They load up their gat/flare proms and blast people who essentially never put up much of a fight. I think you're right when you say that this behavior says a lot about them as individuals.

I think the solution you're looking for in terms of faction standing is a slightly larger overhaul to the system. In addition to a single axis that is serco-itani, they should add a second that is pirate-antipirate. My vision would be that the S-I axis would be for player vs. computer or player vs. player large scale nation combat. Being strong on one side of this axis would give you access to ships that would favor this content. If one were relatively neutral along the S-I axis but strongly Antipirate, they would have access to either a new anti-pirate faction with appropriate pirate hunting equipment or access to decent ships across all three nations. Being strongly pirate would hurt standing with all three nations and the anti-pirate faction. This is of course assuming that nations view piracy as a threat to their efforts and would welcome a truly nation neutral force helping them out.

My advice to you Bungarus is to do what you enjoy within VO. Attempting to change the game will be a source of great frustration and when you burn out we'll have one less good guy. VO's big weakness is the incredibly foul player base, which will never change if well meaning players bang their head against the wall for a month then quit.

Posted on 05/27/12 2:35:43 PM
Strat
Commander [VPR]
Posts: 3964

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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
I just remembered my own sort of petition to the devs from a few years ago, similar to your recent posts, but less specific. In retrospect, I'm not sure if Incarnate (or anyone else) really understood what I was getting at.

http://www.viperguild.com/cgi/simpleforum_pro.cgi?fid=04&topic_id=1232519429

Posted on 05/29/12 3:24:06 PM
Bungarus
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Re: Faction Conflict Mutual-Exclusion
Yes, interesting similarities. Do you think being more specific is a good idea or a bad idea?
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